tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post7471885724715824988..comments2024-03-29T07:10:06.022+08:00Comments on Gold Chat: PBOC paper recommends leasing its reserves to manipulate gold priceBron Sucheckihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00530576934994289879noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-41674200359330648862014-12-15T11:54:32.166+08:002014-12-15T11:54:32.166+08:00I left a comment to Koos response to this post her...I left a comment to Koos response to this post here https://www.bullionstar.com/blog/koos-jansen/gold-chat-bron-suchecki-chinese-gold-lease-market/#comment-1742371754Bron Sucheckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00530576934994289879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-64595354857104369992014-12-11T22:28:58.288+08:002014-12-11T22:28:58.288+08:00I would just like to thank both Koos and Bron, I w...I would just like to thank both Koos and Bron, I wish there was more like both of you in the metals space.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14971437691955187038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-75972782436445444152014-12-11T17:23:57.098+08:002014-12-11T17:23:57.098+08:00And it is a credit to you Koos that you don't ...And it is a credit to you Koos that you don't mind the public debate, which is more than I can say for many others in the blogosphere.Bron Sucheckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00530576934994289879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-47295646570650475102014-12-11T17:03:09.111+08:002014-12-11T17:03:09.111+08:00Bron,
I don't mind you made a public statemen...Bron,<br /><br />I don't mind you made a public statement on what you consider incorrect info. Comment sections are not often read by the masses. I don't think you've been harsh (although I wouldn't use the 'Wninklebottom approach', which can distort the content perception for readers), if someone writes false info I should be said out loud, and so I highly encourage debating. <br /><br />In my opinion there is little true debate in the gold space, much is black or white. I hope we can openly discuss topics. I'm merely interested in the truth, although I have sensed some people won't believe me (coz I work for a PM dealer or coz I write Chinese gold demand is more than what the WGC states).<br /><br />I'll reply "In public", because than al my readers, twitter followers and everybody on my newsletter can read how I digested your post. For me it's not about ME being right, it's about accurate info being spread. If I've spread misleading info I will correct myself. <br /><br />Everybody who read my first post will very likely bump into my reply to you. How this is all spread through the internet is unfortunately beyond my control, but GATA will post it for sure. <br /><br />K<br /><br /> Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09260188706906112262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-56811630608491313752014-12-11T14:44:51.845+08:002014-12-11T14:44:51.845+08:00Bron,
Operative Word being "invite". Twi...Bron,<br />Operative Word being "invite". Twitter being the most expedient delivery means, ergo link provided.<br />Oz is notorious for all things being larger than life, and perhaps your personal invitations are of epic proportions exceeding 140 characters, and twitter lacks your favorite font style as well.<br />I could have suggested snail mail, but there's always that slight possibility that Koos is unaware that the snails from your side of the ocean are poisonous.<br />http://www.qm.qld.gov.au/Find+out+about/Animals+of+Queensland/Molluscs/Gastropods/Marine+snails/~/media/75A6CCD4567B42F6BCFDD1B1E13FC18C.jpg<br /><br />Cheers, S. Rex Spartacus Rexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01154832096182417817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-76555264452735840442014-12-11T13:14:05.828+08:002014-12-11T13:14:05.828+08:00Two interlocking themes here:
"the sometimes...Two interlocking themes here:<br /><br />"the sometimes opaque nature of the gold market" is an understated way of describing the manner in which gold has become a primary tool in the advancement of geo-political objectives. <br /><br />The established fact of gold's transfer from west to east is being embellished from within the ranks of the gold blogosphere into a narrative that serves interests other than "truth in media."<br /><br />Where these two storylines mesh is in the topic at hand - "the China meme"... wherein that countries' accumulation of gold is presented as the anti-dote and eventual lifeboat for western investors disenfranchised by a cabal of corrupt bankstas!<br /><br />The subtle perception management employed by this group of inhouse scribes and associated network of metals pundits to take liberties with the (rather opaque indeed) statistical data on hand ... by means of interpretations which ALWAYS lean towards the above described 'black hat/white hat' narrative...<br /><br />has seduced and entertained their eager audience for some time now. But NOT necessarily to the ultimate benefit of those battered & baffled metals investors! Which brings us back, full circle, to the 'geo-political objectives' angle;<br /><br />who works for whom here? And for what ultimate purpose? All is seldom as it seems - and is portrayed - in the "opaque world of gold!" <br /><br />Good to see the scapel being applied with such professional skill in the forensic autopsy of yet another DOA shadowpuppet production - Kudos Bron!Nutsternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-26405597514371752322014-12-11T12:57:19.228+08:002014-12-11T12:57:19.228+08:00Accounting rules have some element of interpretati...Accounting rules have some element of interpretation in them. I'll do a follow up post covering this an other issues. Bron Sucheckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00530576934994289879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-81389888565918805572014-12-11T11:34:58.026+08:002014-12-11T11:34:58.026+08:00My ignorance in the matter of gold leasing is prof...My ignorance in the matter of gold leasing is profound, and maybe it's getting in the way here. I meant to refer to the SGE “leasing services” mentioned in the quotation of SGE rules, not the proposal. I don't see clearly the 'contrast' Koos was pointing out between the highlighted IMF quote about double counting, and the SGE rules it was contrasted with, and was groping for a better understanding. Your understanding is that these rules are entirely irrelevant when it comes to double counting because those involved may still record transactions in a misleading way on their own balance sheets. I thought that perhaps because “all leases are made by commercial banks through Shanghai Gold Exchange (SGE) accounts” that uniformity in accounting was thereby introduced(?) The highlighted part of article 12 suggested to me that there is never ambiguity about who owns what when a transfer of gold is requested between lessor and lessee and so no “multiple [ownership] claims on one gold bar,” which is what Koos said he means by “double counting.” Are commercial banks in China free to record a transaction on their balance sheet in a misleading way when it is recorded in an unambiguous, non-misleading way in their SGE account? If so, then the rules do seem irrelevant.Out of the woodworkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03135255713824989075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-30348626857570313532014-12-11T09:43:50.470+08:002014-12-11T09:43:50.470+08:00Koos,
"in public I guess" - you may thi...Koos,<br /><br />"in public I guess" - you may think I've been harsh making a public comment but you published an article in the public with what I consider some incorrect statements, so the response is public (live by the sword, die by the sword in a way).<br /><br />If you had emailed me the very interesting paper with your conclusions, yes I would have had this discussion by email.<br /><br />I think you and I have a different take on responsibility in article writing. For me I am aware of the reposting nature of the internet and how this can create memes and how it is almost impossible to pull back anything that is incorrect. Hence I am very careful to only cover topics I am sure about and caveat statements on stuff I'm not.<br /><br />Saying that you will "happy to rectify my post" is fine, but will you go out to all those who reposted your stuff (eg GATA mentioned your not doubled counted statement in their repost) and get them to rectify (assuming they would do so anyway)?<br /><br />I also prefer public discussion because that provides our readers with an insight into the sometimes opaque nature of the gold market and lets them make up their own mind.Bron Sucheckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00530576934994289879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-62210102654250955582014-12-11T09:37:19.693+08:002014-12-11T09:37:19.693+08:00Out of the woodwork,
Lets not confuse "doubl...Out of the woodwork,<br /><br />Lets not confuse "double counting" with hypothecation or fractionlisation. In the context of Koos reference to the IMF report, double counting means the misreporting of gold assets - mixing up physical with loans.<br /><br />Even if the SGE has a "lease system" (note the paper was a recommendation to do leasing on the SGE, I doubt that has happened otherwise we'd be seeing Koos reporting SGE lease statistics) that is only for recording deals and doing transfers, it would not control how a bank reports its balance sheet.Bron Sucheckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00530576934994289879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-71860744008881068692014-12-11T09:28:48.233+08:002014-12-11T09:28:48.233+08:00S. Rex,
A debate in 140 char, seriously? Twitter ...S. Rex,<br /><br />A debate in 140 char, seriously? Twitter is good for letting people know what you've done and short comments, but on detailed technical matters I don't think it worksBron Sucheckihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00530576934994289879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-70667452109364361722014-12-11T06:49:18.413+08:002014-12-11T06:49:18.413+08:00Hi Bron,
Thanks for your take. I will do some add...Hi Bron,<br /><br />Thanks for your take. I will do some additional research and then respond - in public I guess. If I find something that proves you are right I will be happy to rectify my post. <br /><br />It's certainly an interesting topic I will investigate thoroughly. <br /><br />KoosAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09260188706906112262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-70041114904562906402014-12-11T02:14:27.989+08:002014-12-11T02:14:27.989+08:00Regarding double counting, was his point that in a...Regarding double counting, was his point that in a conventional/western swap or loan there is no third party (SGE) through whom all leases must pass and by whom records of who has what (and when) are kept? Wasn't Koos saying double counting won't happen in the SGE lease system because the ultimate record keeper (SGE) always knows whose gold is being leased, to whom it is leased and for what purpose? Straighten me out.<br /><br />I'm glad you are back to blogging more frequently.Out of the woodworkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03135255713824989075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-77189368478798163582014-12-10T19:31:07.414+08:002014-12-10T19:31:07.414+08:00This post has already invited the debate - by open...This post has already invited the debate - by opening the curtains on a critical element of the western based analyst "perception management." No need to limit it to selected participants!<br /><br />We are daily awash in stories and reports in the gold blogosphere that reinforce the "bad" western bankstas, versus the good clean players in the East motif. <br /><br />It's a storyline that plays well with the audience the metals media targets - gold is cruelly "manipulated" downwards, by the bad guys, but the good guys are getting ready to save the day! In the last year or so, China has become every goldbugs best buddy it seems. <br /><br />"For some reason, Koos instead thought" is a master stroke of nuance there Bron... the careful reader knows exactly what that reason is, and how sorely missing thoughtful, independent reviews of the landscape are. <br /><br />A very ripe topic for discussion indeed!Nutsternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6089228851855763774.post-57506215925780597792014-12-10T18:37:06.639+08:002014-12-10T18:37:06.639+08:00So Bron,
Why don't you simply invite Koos to...So Bron, <br /><br />Why don't you simply invite Koos to debate the merits of the issue then?<br /><br />https://twitter.com/KoosJansen<br /><br />Cheers, S. RexSpartacus Rexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01154832096182417817noreply@blogger.com